Ep. 1: The Best and Worst of Grad School: Imposter Syndrome, Expectations, & Opportunity
In this inaugural episode of Dear Grad Student, Elana chats with her close friends Emily Atkinson (@EmilyA_Atkinson) and Anita Adams about the best and worst parts of grad school. They discuss best parts like the people you meet, that it's never too late to start, the "choose your own adventure" nature of it all, and worst parts, like getting no sleep, protecting your time, making friends in your department, imposter syndrome, & separating your self-worth from your productivity. PLUS Elana talks about how nervous she is about starting a podcast, Emily runs marathons in grad school (which is WILD), & Anita talks about her Myspace.
The podcast episode by 'Quantitude' mentioned at 19:30 can be found --> HERE
The paper mentioned at 23:50 can be found --> HERE
The paper mentioned at 25:00 can be found --> HERE
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Music provided by:
Open Those Bright Eyes by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4171-open-those-bright-eyes
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Elana Gloger: 0:00
[Musical intro] Dear Grad Student, hey, thanks for tuning into my first episode. Today, I'm going to be talking to my close friend Emily and Anita about the best and Hello, listeners! Welcome to the first episode of Dear Grad worst parts of grad school. Student, the podcast where grad students can come together to celebrate, commiserate, and support one another through this crazy life decision we've decided to embark on. And hopefully for those of you listening, this will resonate with you and maybe help you too. I'm Elana, I am a fourth year doctoral student and your host and I am joined today by my close friends and Anita Adams and Emily Atkinson to discuss the best and worst parts of grad school. So Emily and Anita, thank you so much for joining me! I really appreciate you guys being here. Do you guys want to introduce yourself? Who wants to go first?
Emily Atkinson: 0:30
[Crosstalk] Sure, I can-
Anita Adams: 0:44
[Crosstalk] Um, me... Go for it, Emily.
Elana Gloger: 1:04
[Crosstalk] Oooh, fight about it. [Undetermined laughter]
Emily Atkinson: 1:06
Okay. Okay, well, like Elana said, my name's Emily. I am a third year doctoral student in clinical psych. Um, I don't know how much more there that you want. But...
Elana Gloger: 1:17
I think that's the whole thing. Uh, Anita, how 'bout you?
Anita Adams: 1:22
[Laughs] So, my name is Anita. I'm also a third year doctoral student in a clinical psychology program. And, uh, I'm a huge nerd, so if I make random references, that's what's happening there.
Elana Gloger: 1:32
Anita, good news. We love nerds here. For those of you listening at home, Anita and Emily and I are in the same program. Anita's in my lab. I gotta be honest, whenever I listen to podcasts, and they have, like, close friends on I get a little more judgmental. But I'm doing it. Because I'm nervous. [Group laughter] Judge me all you want! Okay. So why don't we go ahead and get started? I'm thinking, like, let's go back and forth between the best and the worst. Do we want to start with the best or with the worst?
Anita Adams: 1:59
See, I'm a pessimist by nature so starting with the worst is, like, easier. But maybe the best so that people don't get depressed going in already.
Elana Gloger: 2:07
[Sigh] You know what, let's be realistic. I like the idea of starting with the worst. Because then it means at the very end, we'll end with the best right? Maybe?
Anita Adams: 2:13
[Crosstalk] Uh, maybe? Makes sense.
Emily Atkinson: 2:14
[Crosstalk] Yeah, sure.
Elana Gloger: 2:14
Sure, let's go for it.
Anita Adams: 2:15
[Inaudible]
Elana Gloger: 2:15
Okay, well Anita you sounded really excited and
Anita Adams: 2:16
[Crosstalk] The worst? confident about that. Do you want to go ahead and start with the worst? Do you have one lined up-
Elana Gloger: 2:21
-that is just REALLY the worst [Anita laughs] part of grad school for you?
Anita Adams: 2:25
So, believe it or not, I used to actually sleep at normal times, like, for a normal amount of hours at night. And you know, I went into first year and I was like, "This is gonna be easy. Like, I've been doing the nine to five job. I was an undergrad. Like, I know how this goes, it's fine." Literally now, I average, like, four to five hours of sleep a night?
Elana Gloger: 2:48
[Gasp] Bad!
Anita Adams: 2:49
Which is terrible. And everybody says it, I know.
Elana Gloger: 2:51
Anita, bad!
Anita Adams: 2:52
I KNOW. But listen, like, my thing is that, like, I'm just not the type of person who gets my work done during the day. That's just, like, not my time. Those prime hours of like twelve to four. That's, like, sleep time.
Elana Gloger: 3:04
So, then, do you take naps during the day?
Anita Adams: 3:06
Oh, no, not at all. Because I'd be, like, in uh- [Laughs] I would be at school or, like, doing therapy, you know? So, like... [Laughs]
Elana Gloger: 3:12
So what you're saying is, like, you just conk out at that time, you don't literally nap.
Anita Adams: 3:15
Yeah yeah no no no. Like- it's like my body would LIKE to nap. My body CANNOT nap. So literally, what ends up happening is usually I would, like, take my work home with me. And then, you know, I'm getting in it, the flow's there. We're doing great. And wow, it's 3am and I gotta get back and up and ready to go back to school by, like, eight. So... [Laughs]
Elana Gloger: 3:35
Yeah. It's one of those things- like, I have written down as one of the worst parts. You are kind of able to figure out your own schedule, but it's almost too much freedom. I kind of choose what I get to do, but during the day I have certain expectations. I don't fully get to choose, right? You don't get to actually sleep during those twelve to four hours because you're doing things. I mean, I think even, like, on that point, self care is so hard to grasp as a grad student. I don't know, I have been pretty good about the eight hours of sleep but that's mostly because of my own partner's schedule and, like, him going to bed early during the year. I don't know. What's sleep like for you, Emily? Like, do you also struggle with it in grad school or like...?
Emily Atkinson: 4:07
I struggle with it a little more than I think I did before. So, I think, like Anita said, I was doing the nine to five thing beforehand and I was really good about, like, getting up at 6am and running at 6:30 and then going to work. Uh, which since coming to grad school... [Sigh]
Elana Gloger: 4:22
Anita, how do we know her? [Emily laughs]
Anita Adams: 4:24
Yeah, I was gonna say, what a nice, normal routine. [Laughs]
Elana Gloger: 4:27
How healthy! It's all changed.
Emily Atkinson: 4:31
I'd be, like, in bed before 10:30. If I was up past 11 it was, like, weird. But now I'm, like- if I get up at 8am or before I'm like [Whispered], "Oh my god". [Inaudible crosstalk and laughter] It's definitely thrown me off. I used to be, like- like a "never bring my work home" kind of person. [Anita agrees] That is all, kinda, out the window. I feel, like, a little like Ania now. It'll be, like, 10pm I'm like, "Alright, let's go. Let's rock it."
Elana Gloger: 4:56
[Laughs] Wave number four for the day.
Emily Atkinson: 4:59
Yeah.
Anita Adams: 4:59
Yep.
Elana Gloger: 5:00
So, it sounds like you both just have felt like your schedules have changed a lot. And like, that's affected sleep- at least the schedule of it. Like, I mean it sounds like hours and schedule, perhaps, for you. But, Emily, it sounds like you are also experiencing the fact that you've just totally shifted. Maybe sleep hasn't been affected hours wise, but like
you're not waking up at 6: 5:16
30 to go on a run as much anymore, despite the fact that you're still running MARATHONS, but that's fine. [Group laughter]
Anita Adams: 5:25
But is it fine, Elana? That tone, it suggested some other things.
Elana Gloger: 5:28
Um, [Anita laughs] it is. It- you know, it is fine. It is just- it's fine.
Emily Atkinson: 5:32
I'm very protective of my sleep, though.
Elana Gloger: 5:34
Yeah. And I think that that's exactly the word, you have to be protective. Because if you're not, it is SO easy- and if, you know, Anita you can speak to this- it's so easy to slip into all of the excuses as to why you have things more important than sleep in that moment. Even if later on, you're like, "That was a bad decision." You still rationalize that every time, it's SO easy.
Anita Adams: 5:53
Yeah, no, I mean, I recently had that moment. I mean, I was starting to get better about separating, kind of, my work life and my school life. And then Corona decided to say, "Hey, I know you tried your best, but that's over now." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So, that was a [Elana laughs] very hard transition for me, like- [Inaudible].
Elana Gloger: 6:07
I love the way you worded that. Hey, I know you tried your best. [Laughs]
Anita Adams: 6:12
And I remember there was one night, I was, like, up late working on some sort of protocol for, like, some research project. And I was just, like, I HAVE to get this done tonight. I really did not have to get it done that night. Because you know, people are still working on that part of my project. So literally, I did not have to get it done that night but I had convinced myself. I was like, "It has to happen."
And then it was like, 4: 6:33
30.
Elana Gloger: 6:34
And I remember that. I remember texting you about that and being like, "No! You need to sleep." But at the same time, it's like how do you argue with someone, right? Like, you don't know what they're going through or what they need to get done. Like, even same mentor, different mentor, like, we all kind of have a different journey through this. And it's hard to say to someone else, like, what THEY need to do or, like, what they're supposed to be doing through this. Okay, well, now that we've talked about really unhealthy sleep patterns, why don't we move on to a best part of grad school? Um, I- I have a list of this. So if you guys are like [Whispering], "I don't know", I can pick one from my list.
Emily Atkinson: 7:07
Oh, I'l think- okay, I'll try and think of a best. The best is admittedly, like, much harder than the worst.
Elana Gloger: 7:13
Okay, but like, here's my other thing, here is part of why I wanted to make this podcast. There needs to be a space to us- for us to all be like, "This is a problem. And also, we're not the only people going through it." But I also hope that there's a space where, you know, and maybe this is just the optimist in me, but like, it also was such a privilege to be here. And I feel like there have to be parts of it that are good and it can't just be the career that comes out of it at the end, right? Like we're doing this for five, six, seven, you know, eight years depending on where you are in your journey and all of that. At some point, there has to be something good to hang on to and I really want to find that. Which is also-
Emily Atkinson: 7:48
[Crosstalk, laughs] Oh no.
Elana Gloger: 7:49
-[inaudible] what I wanted for the first episode is, like, I- I just want someone to relate to this. It is the best AND it is the worst, right? Sort of that, ugh I hate to say dialect but here we are, it's part of that dialect. So Emily, any thoughts on the best part? Even if it's not the best for you, but if you're like, "Hypothetically, this would be the best if I was experiencing it?" [Laughs]
Emily Atkinson: 8:07
So, I think one thing- I guess it's one of the best things and this I can just speak to, like, personally just, like, being in research in general. It's, you know, the people that you get to meet and make connections with. Because I never really felt like I met people that I connected super well with throughout college and in high school too. And so, I think going to grad school, you have the opportunity to be around a lot of like minded people and people who are interested in, like, the same weird, very specific thing that you're interested in. So, that's really nice.
Elana Gloger: 8:40
We love weird specific bonding here at the Dear Grad Student podcast. [Laughs] So, are you talking about, like, mentor relationships or a peer relationship, or, like, what aspect of that?
Emily Atkinson: 8:49
Peer specifically. So like, other people my age who are, like, going down the same track. Because in undergrad not everybody wants to, you know, go into research or understands what you're doing. They're like, "Oh, so you're going to go back to school for how many more years?"
Elana Gloger: 9:04
[Sighs] I- I hate that conversation. [Laughs] I feel like I get that ALL the time where people are like, "You're just going to be in school forever. You know, blah, blah." And I'm like, yeah, but A) for me, at least personally- and I know that this is not everyone's experience for really valid reasons- school is kind of a safe place for me. School is the place where, like, in a protected way, like, I can play and explore and be creative and interact with people who are, kind of, like minded. And I feel like the network- I remember- I don't know if you guys went through the same training, but they talked about building our network, right? And so, there's, like, the professional network. There is the, like, personal network. There's, like, the family network and all of these different things that they talked about, like, it's going to grow and grow as you experience and are a grad student and go through this whole thing. And it's so valuable that you have people to reach out to for different things. The three of us are all sitting on the Zoom call right now and this is, like, a great example of people that I have networked with. You know, Emily and I do- we don't do research even close to each other. Anita and I are in the same lab but, like, even we do things that are pretty different. And so, it's this cool area where it's kind of what Anita said at the beginning. We're just big nerds and it's really cool to be around other big nerds. And I think that we're in a particularly lucky situation where we don't really have that competitive thing within our department very much at least, like, professionally. So, we get this really cool opportunity, Emily, like you said of, like, this peer networking. What about you, Anita? Like, does it compare to your undergrad in any way?
Anita Adams: 10:29
I mean, it's definitely nice to be not the one overachieving person, for once. Because I always, kind of, felt like going through school and undergrad it was always, like you know, "Oh, Anita is always trying so hard. Anita's always doing this. Anita's always doing that." But it was always very reassuring, especially during first year, to be among a bunch of other people who are equally, like, on that totem pole. Like, I always say I'm more neurotic than probably most people in this program. Just like-
Elana Gloger: 10:56
[Crosstalk] All of us are, though. I feel like it's a requirement.
Anita Adams: 10:59
See, and that's the thing is I'm, like, everybody has their degrees of neuroticism, which is comforting, for sure, because then I'm, like- you know, I'm not alone in this. But I also- I also recognize that, like, my neuroticism can be a little extreme, especially in, uh, certain testing situations that happened during first year that Emily knows well about and how that all went down. I can agree, though, that it is nice to, kind of like, be in a, sort of, environment where, you know, everybody is supportive of each other. And like, people are always, kind of like, looking out and, like, genuinely want to know like, "What's going on with you?" and want those life updates and everything. Like, I know, Elana, you got mad because I didn't tell you I got a cat. [Elana laughs, inaudible crosstalk]
Elana Gloger: 11:37
That is absolutely correct, I did.
Anita Adams: 11:39
And the cat literally just moved onto my lap just now. So, it was, like, a perfect segue timing.
Elana Gloger: 11:43
Yeah, I mean, honestly, when you told me that you didn't, I was- I felt betrayed for about 30 seconds. And once I grieved, passed through that, I was so glad you told me. [Laughs] And you know, I have to say, like, hearing you both talk about this, it, kind of, reminds me again, I do feel like we're pretty lucky. There are probably people who are like, "That has not been my experience at all. Why is this on your list of bests?" I know that there are- I've seen people on Twitter talk about some of the worst people that they've met have been in their grad school experience. And you know, I'll say to that it's- especially first year, and really not since then, I had a HORRIBLE time finding my network. It was really, really hard. It was really, really lonely. And it got better. But I think that it's- it so just depends on timing. It depends on just a million different factors. And I think it's really valid to think that there are people out there who have not had the same experience, who would actually put the people they've met on the worst list. And I think it comes down to departmental culture and probably what they're studying. I don't know if psychology is better or worse. Part of me feels like worse? Even though that hasn't been our experience. I feel like that's what Twitter has told me, but who knows. So, it's interesting and, kind of, reassuring that we're on our best list. I don't want people who have this on their worst list to give up or to feel like this is all of academia. And at the same time, like this is a probl- that's probably is a majority. I don't think that the majority have had the experience we have had. I don't know.
Anita Adams: 13:02
I was gonna say to, like, validate that too. Like, when I first came to the program, I was very anxious about it, actually. Because like, you know, I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few minorities in the program, if not the only Black student in the program at this point now? I'm not sure.
Elana Gloger: 13:17
Which in and of itself is also a problem.
Anita Adams: 13:19
Oh, yeah. Now that- that's a- that's a WHOLE conversation right there. That's a whole new podcast episode for you, Elana. So, just invite me back for that.
Elana Gloger: 13:27
Oh, don't worry. You can- we can- we should talk about it. Absolutely.
Anita Adams: 13:30
Yeah. But like, you know, when I first came- I remember my fear was, like, there's only so many people that go into grad school. So, you're already working with, like, a small amount of people. And I do remember one of my, like, biggest fears is, like, I'm not going to click with anybody. Like, and it's not going to be necessarily, like, they hate me or they think bad about me, but it's just, you know, like, there's slim pickings. Like, I think our class only had 12 people.
Elana Gloger: 13:51
And that was clinical AND experimental. And so, for those of you listening, for psychology, right, there are sort of the psychologists that do therapy and the psychologists that don't that kind of get lumped into one group, even though they do a lot of different things. And so, when Anita says, there were twelve, you know, for ALL psychology grad students, your year there were twelve. But in clinical, there were only five. And so after first year, at least in our program, you know, you take steps together, and you take a couple things together. But after that, you know, clinical- you just do so much clinically together or you know, brownbag is just with clinical- really, it was like five.
Anita Adams: 14:22
Yeah, and so it's like- yeah. When you keep narrowing down the numbers, it gets more anxiety inducing, because then you're just like, "Oh man, now I only have five people. So like, what are my chances I'm going to find that one other person I'm going to be able to jive with?" To validate those feelings, like, I think that's a very real fear to have. I think you're right, that, kind of, "luck of the draw" our program has just such a great culture about that that I was able to find people that I click with. Both in a hobbies level- like, I have a good friend who on the first day of orientation, she like, looked at my backpack (had nerdy stuff on it) and she was just like, "Hey, is that that one anime?" And I was like, "Yes, it is." And we've clicked ever since.
Elana Gloger: 14:57
[Laughs] Oh my god, I love that.
Anita Adams: 14:58
Yeah, no, it was pretty great. But she's way more outgoing than me. Being introverted, like, I consider myself pretty introverted, almost uncomfortable. So, maybe I'm an ambivert. Like, I don't know where we are on the introvert extraversion scale at this rate.
Elana Gloger: 15:10
I don't know. I took the NEO as a first year, because we had to, and then I refused to score it because I thought, "That's too much inf- I- I don't need to know... "[Anita laughs, inaudible]
Anita Adams: 15:18
You weren't ready for that truth? I thought, "You know what, I have read the questions. And, uh, that's about all I need." [Group laughter] Fair enough. But yeah, like you now, and also being ntroverted- because, like, a ot of people academically tend o be a little more on the ntroverted side because, you now, you spend more time tudying, you just spend more ime with yourself, essentially. nd so, that's also a valid fear o have too is, like, not even ecessarily that you click with eople but you kind of have to ut yourself out there maybe a ittle more than you usually ould, because everyone else round you is also kind of ntroverted. And I think, you now, I was lucky that in my ohort we kind of have our esident extrovert who always rings us together to, like, ave us do things together.
Elana Gloger: 15:57
For all of you listening, I just cut out the name Anita said of who it was because I just had this face of like, "Which one is it?" But now we're there. So and you know, I think the other thing too, Anita, that you might have had going for you a little bit- and I don't mean to "toot my own horn", but I feel, like, because I personally had such an isolating experience- I mean, sure I have, you know, one of my best friends I've made my whole life was in my cohort, three of my closest friends currently, like, were all there before your cohort- but I remember when your cohort came in, I was like, "Oh, no, no, like, that's- this is not going to be their experience". Specifically with you, Anita, because you were coming into my lab I was like, "Oh, she will be my friend. [Anita laughs] She will feel welcome. Oh, I dare you to try. She will be PART of this." And so, it was like a mission of mine that I was like, "I don't want this to be repeated. And I really want her to feel welcomed." And I remember that being, like- okay, so, I'm an extrovert, but I'm, like, in denial extrovert, which you also know a lot about. I don't actually think that I'm extroverted, but everyone, like, laughs, literally laughs, when I say that. But one of the things for me which was interesting to think about is, like, I actually feel like I had the opposite problem. I was SO extroverted that, like, all of my anxiety instead of, like, holeing up away or isolating myself was just, like, this overcompensation of my personality to be like, "Oh my god, please like me!" And you know what, like, they didn't and that was okay. And that was just my expression of anxiety. So, I don't want to, like, paint this picture like, "Heh, we never struggled."
Anita Adams: 17:17
Yeah.
Elana Gloger: 17:17
No, no, I think it's really hard to do that sideways networking. And I think you're so right, Emily, it is a best. Because the place that I'm at with it now, I'm- I'm surviving by the relationships I've made in grad school. They MAKE IT for me. It's not like it was perfect or easy. It's just important to talk about because, yes, it's a best, but it wasn't an easy one to get to.
Emily Atkinson: 17:37
And yeah, I agree that it definitely is not a best for everyone. And I think that- Academic Twitter is something that I've, like, just recently discovered in the last year and I'm finding out they're, like, really cool people in my field that don't go to my school? So, I think there are other, like, ways to, kind of, create your network that take maybe a little more effort. But I've definitely met some really cool people just, like, at conferences and there's lots of cool people.
Elana Gloger: 17:59
Yeah, yeah. And I feel, like you know, conferences, they talk a lot- at least the conferences I regularly attend, I say that like there's two, I go to one, [group laughter] because I have no money I go to one.
Anita Adams: 18:09
Feel that.
Elana Gloger: 18:09
But they talk so much about, like, sideways networking and, like, meeting your cohort, essentially, of researchers that 10 and 20 and 30 years from now are gonna be the leaders of the society. And so, I think that, like, it is such a valuable skill to learn. And like, sometimes it's, like kind of, painful to do so. Like, when you, like, figure it out- not to mention, I mean, one thing we haven't even touched on with you two is that you both took some time off and I came right from undergrad and, for different reasons I'm sure, we all had a culture shock coming in. I just, like, was really caught off guard by not being prepared for how absolutely human normal people were, like, I really I almost looked up to them too much as grad students. Like, we are all just humans. Okay, well, how about I go in and throw in a worst? I feel like your- your best was still a best, Emily, I don't want you to think it wasn't. [Anita laughs]
Emily Atkinson: 18:52
Oh no, it's a good point that it's definitely not a best for everyone.
Anita Adams: 18:56
Right.
Elana Gloger: 18:56
I mean, really, I hate to say this word again, but
Anita Adams: 18:57
Yeah.
Elana Gloger: 18:57
-that whole idea of the moving goalposts. We like [Whispers] it's a dialect. Okay, moving on. Okay, so I feel like, one that we all can real y talk about would be: there's recently listened to a podcast for our lab meeting. The podcast ot really a right way to do g ad school. For me, I felt like in my first few years- and I a ain saying this as if I'm not two months from just having b t a third year- I felt like t ose expectations- and Anita ag in, we talked about this in our ab meeting recently- is called Quantitude. Episode Four is all about advice for grad students. And so, they talked about this, like, moving
goalposts: 19:30
this whole idea that expectations are changing. You know, what was expected of me as a grad student as a first year- like, when I was in first year in terms of, like, what it meant to get a job is going to be different when I'm a postdoc looking for jobs, right? Like, that goalpost is moving yearly. For me, that- like, the expectations thing is rough.
Emily Atkinson: 19:46
Yeah, I mean, I feel that that is also, kind of like, a worst of mine. Like, the expectations and just, like, the one like you said, you never really know what they are going into third year. It's like, "Do I know what I'm supposed to know at this point? Should I be better at this at this point?"
Anita Adams: 20:00
I will 100% echo exactly what you just said, Emily. Like, "Should I be better at this?" Because, like, when I was doing my theses analyses, all on my own now, basically. Like, I've talked with my mentor and she's give me the syntax, it's been great. There will be things that I run into and I'm like, "Should I know how to do this right now? Like, am I behind?" And then, like, the thoughts start going and it's like, "Oh God, if I'm behind now, like, am I even going to be able to be an independent researcher, at some point, if I'm sitting here having to, like, look up something that I feel like should be basic for me at this point?" I had to, kind of, come to a realization where I was like, "Sometimes you're just out of practice with things." And obviously, you're not going to know, or remember, every single detail about every single, like, statistical procedure that you THINK you should know about. Especially as, like, a beginning therapist, I actually am SUPER hard on myself about things like that, where I'm like, "Should I know this therapeutic technique by now and be able to apply it easier?"
Elana Gloger: 20:51
You know, Anita, I really appreciate your vulnerability with that too, just in saying, like, this is a regular occurrence. Even though you're about to be a third year, I'm about to be a fourth year, you know, same with you, Emily, being a third year, like, I remember as a first year that I would look at third and fourth year students, and A) would think, "How the heck did you get to where you are? and B) I will never get there." I couldn't understand how anyone could do any of those things. And the second question that I struggle with is like, I don't even know how to learn that right now. Now that I know when I don't know, I- I still don't know how to get there.
Anita Adams: 21:21
Oh, yeah. And for me, I already didn't like math. Like, that's always- me and math have never been friends [Inaudible crosstalk] or anything like that. Nah, hate it. [Laughs].
Elana Gloger: 21:29
Breaking the rules nerd-dom.
Anita Adams: 21:31
I'm sorry, just math is not where I nerd out. Ma -math has never been my jam. Hate it, with a burning passion. For me, that comes out even harder with math things. Because I know as a researcher, like, I'm like, "Theoretically, I should understand what's going on here." So anytime, like, I have an issue that's related to math, that fear kind of pops up of like, "Is it just because I'm bad at math and I'm behind, and everybody else is, like, doing better with this?" And now, you know, and then those comparisons, which I always try to avoid as best as I can, start comparing yourself to other people and what they can do. And then you realize that it's just a perception. And that most of us are, kind of, on that same field of like, "Uhhh? I don't know what I'm doing. Do you know what you're doing?" And everybody's like, "No, not at all." And then it's like, "Oh! That's very reassuring."
Elana Gloger: 22:15
That- I love that you talked about the comparison [Laughs] game there. I feel like the comparison game is my, sort of, biggest weakness. And it never used to be, but it just became this, like, almost like a compulsion where, when I would feel a little bit anxious about how I was doing, it would be like, "Well, let me just check in where other people are at because maybe that will give me some relief, maybe it will call me down to say you're doing okay, maybe it'll give me that validation." And nine times out of ten, it doesn't. Because even if I'm- I have more than X area they have more than Y. And so, t really just becomes not ve y helpful. We're all on
Emily Atkinson: 22:47
Oh, god, that's really- [Anita laughs] a different journey. You know, I came straight from undergrad A lot of people didn't. nd there's almost no way to compare. And I really feel l ke it sucks the joy out of w at should be kin- I hate to say t should be a joyful process, ecause like grad school is eally, really hard, and I don't ean that- but, like, getting t do science, learning by choic , kind of, every single day, lik , is a cool job. Like, that's ou
Elana Gloger: 23:07
Sorry, uh really big life question. job. It really does kind of ta e the joy out of it when you pl y the comparison game. And at th same time, like, we've all s en the job market. We- we now you're screwed. [Unidentifie laughter] How do you avoid t at? I- I don't know if we c n. I don't know. Do you have a vice on that? Like, what would y u say to your first year your elf?
Emily Atkinson: 23:27
[Sarcastic] Yeah, no pressure. Uhh, I guess thinking about comparison- I mean, I agree comparison is the worst. And now, with all these various- there's, like- there's Google Scholar, there's ResearchGate, there's Twitter, there's people's CVs is on their academic profiles, all of which, you know, I have visited to see how I compare.
Elana Gloger: 23:44
Of course.
Emily Atkinson: 23:45
There's, like, so many avenues by which you can compare yourself to other people and make yourself feel bad, if you want to. But one thing I do think about, like, in terms of, like, I TRIED to make myself feel better with is: there's that study- I think we had to read it in a research design class- talking about how, I think, the median number of publications for a grad student is zero or something like that?
Anita Adams: 24:07
Yep, I remember that. It was, like, suuuper lo
Elana Gloger: 24:10
Okay, so this is [inaudible].
Anita Adams: 24:11
Yeah, I think it was like 1.2 or something. Like, it was, like, insanely low.
Emily Atkinson: 24:14
Super low.
Elana Gloger: 24:15
Was that, like, only psychology? Was that, like, all grad students? Or you don't remember?
Emily Atkinson: 24:19
I don't remember. I'll have to look it up.
Elana Gloger: 24:21
So, I think that, like, that's such a good example because I went into grad school and I remember being like, "I want ten first author pubs by the time I leave."
Anita Adams: 24:28
Meee! [Laughs]
Elana Gloger: 24:29
I'm, like, a fourth year I'm like, "What the hell am I gonna publish on ten times?" I've had, like-
Anita Adams: 24:33
[Crosstalk] That was me.
Elana Gloger: 24:34
-two and a half solid ideas in three years. I don't know where the hell I thought I was A) gonna have ideas to produce ten things or B) think that I would be first on those. It's just interesting the perspective you think you have coming in and, like, what's realistic versus- like, what you're saying, Emily- like, what is actually happening. What else did that paper say?
Emily Atkinson: 24:51
[Sighs] That's a good- I feel like I want to look it up. I'll have to look it up and send it to you.
Elana Gloger: 24:56
Why don't you- if you want to, you can look it up and I can talk about this failure piece. So Anita, you went to a conference two years ago, SPSP. Society for...?
Anita Adams: 25:05
Yes.
Elana Gloger: 25:06
Oh god, Personality and Social Psychology?
Anita Adams: 25:08
Yes! Perfect.
Elana Gloger: 25:09
Thank you. I really should know that. [Anita laughs] So, Anita went to this conference and they held a symposia, and this symposia- symposium? What's the plural? See? Grad students, we're human too.
Anita Adams: 25:19
No, no. It's- I think it's, like, what? Symposium for multiple, symposia for one?
Elana Gloger: 25:24
How many- is it? Which is which?
Anita Adams: 25:26
Symposia for one, symposium for-
Elana Gloger: 25:29
We're sure?
Anita Adams: 25:30
-two? Maybe? [Inaudible group confusion and likening to the plural of data]
Elana Gloger: 25:34
Oh, gosh, don't get me started about data. Data is definitely the plural. [Anita laughs] Okay. Sympo- this is really important-
Anita Adams: 25:40
[Crosstalk] It might be that rule, it might be like that-
Elana Gloger: 25:41
The people need to know. Oh, symposia is plural.
Anita Adams: 25:44
God! I knew it was gonna be the data rule.
Elana Gloger: 25:46
Uh, there's a symposium at the SPSP (Society for Personality and Social Psychology conference) that was all about, essentially, failure in academia and how that is actually more than norm than success. And so, I actually did look that up ahead of time. Also, because, um, that's just something that I feel like I just read sometimes to feel better. But this is great, because this is, sort of, like the anti-comparison game. So, this is published in Perspectives on Psychological Science and the title is "Common Academic Experiences No One Talks About: Repeated Rejection, Imposter Syndrome, and Burnout", which I feel like is the trifecta. And so, the first author on this is Lisa Jaremka.
Anita Adams: 26:21
So, it was probably one of my favorite experiences I think that's how that's pronounced. But, basically, they just had a bunch of people that, essentially, provided commentary on like, "This is the real trut of, like, how many times I' e been rejected and all of t e things that I overcame. Lik , sure I have this R01, but he e are the SEVEN that didn't ge funded." And so, they have his whole- Table One and Table Two are all individual level nd then cultural and structural ecommendations to, sort of combat this. Anita, so, you ere at the symposium- and I kno you've talked about this- why don't you talk a little bit abo t what that was like and even just, like, the crowd and wh t it was like to be in a gr up of people actually talking ab ut that openly and not being as amed of it.
Elana Gloger: 26:57
[Crosstalk] Oh, wow, I don't know if I new that. at SPSP. What was interesting was it was one of the most acked panels that I saw. Like, f I remember correctly, it was n, like, a big ballroom setup and there were people that were having to, like, stand at th back. So, it was, like- clearly it was a topic that a lot m re people are interested in th
Anita Adams: 27:12
Yeah!
Elana Gloger: 27:13
Good for you, man! n you would think. And I thi k what was so great about it s, like you know, the air in t e room, at first, was a li tle tense because people were k nd of like, "Oh, you know, why
Anita Adams: 27:20
Oh, no, it was it was very nerve wracking. I was are we here? Like, what's this all gonna be about?" And it was very much just a reall raw conversation. I remember o e of the speakers got very emot onal talking about his experi nces with imposter syndrome t ing. And I remember I got very emotional with it, because oing outside my comfort zone, fo once, I actually stood up a d, like, voiced my exper like, "I don't know what's possessed me, some sort of ences and concerns abou imposter syndrome. [Crosstal ] Because, like, my question is academic spirit. [Laughs] We are just gonna roll with it." I remember what happened was, like, I asked, like- and it was a- kind of, a moment of vulnerability for me too. And I was just like, "You know, is this something that ever goes away? Like, does imposter syndrome ever go away and do you start feeling like you're finally in the place where you need to be?" And that's kind of weird, like, that one panelist got emotional and he was just kind of like, "You know, you never do." He's like, "I'm tenured faculty, I have all these publications, I'm this and that, and every day, I still feel like I don't belong in my office." And I was just kind of like, "Wow", you know? Because it's not exactly the answer I wanted to hear? Because I was hoping to hear like, "Yes, you get over it after you hit 15 publications and then you never feel like an imposter ever again."
Elana Gloger: 28:30
Right?
Anita Adams: 28:30
But it was very much, kind of, this raw truth. I remember they were talking about having rejection CVs.
Elana Gloger: 28:35
Yeah. [Crosstalk, inaudible]
Anita Adams: 28:35
They're like, "I ca literally make a WHOLE CV ou of all the things I've been r jected for." And they would
Elana Gloger: 28:38
[Crosstalk] Yeah, it's such a crapshoot. ost them up there. And they we e just kind of like, "You know, his is how it is. You are rej cted more often than you are acc pted", and that's something t at no one talks about in gr d school. When it's, like, you g in and you expect that you'll
Anita Adams: 28:50
-they gave, like, a really low statistic for, like, succeed. And a lot of times yo actually don't, and it really w ighs down on you because you start being like, "What am I oing wrong? Am I a failure, e c, etc?" And there's just so m ny other pieces at play. And I think- the amount of times people publish. Yeah, like, it's insane. So, that was a really great experience.
Elana Gloger: 29:12
Absolutely. And I think that, you know, thinking about this as just really being luck- especially with grants, like, you think, you know, "What percentage of grants are being discussed? And, then, what percentage of that are even funded?" Right? So much is out of our hands.
Anita Adams: 29:24
Yeah.
Elana Gloger: 29:24
And I think it's so easy to take it personally. I'm actually looking at the article now- and I don't know which one that you spoke to, which person there- but there's one that spoke to me- and I actually think somewhat speaks to me doing this podcast, but I just wanted to say it for a second- in one of the recommendations it says, "Feel the fear and do it anyways. Try not to let the feelings of insecurity or unworthiness dictate your behavior." And, on a personal level, I mean, I- I'm- right now am- I already said the beginning- I'm nervous to do this. I don't know who's going to listen to this and I'm sure that there are going to be people who are laughing at this. And I feel like this is still an important platform and, like, space to create with grad students to talk about this. Because every single person, who is successful in academia, is really- I don't want to say more of a failure, because that's not what it is- but they have been through SO many failures to get to the successful level that they're at. And if that were talked about, how many more people would be either grad students or in academia because they had been properly prepared and known to separate themselves from the outcome of their work output, right? How many people left because it was too much- like, for a valid reason. Like, this shit hurts.
Emily Atkinson: 30:27
Right, and nobody prepares you for it. Like, I was not- not at all prepared.
Elana Gloger: 30:32
No! [Laughs]
Emily Atkinson: 30:32
Like, just like getting in. Like, I didn't realize that a lot of people have to apply more than once and it's not always, like, about you. Trying to publish, too, I think I got rejected twice the first time I tried to publish something. And I was like, "Great, I'm never going to publish." [Inaudible crosstalk and laughter]. Like, nobody told me that I should expect it.
Elana Gloger: 30:53
Mmm hmm.
Emily Atkinson: 30:53
Like, that you- like, that rejection is just, like, the norm.
Elana Gloger: 30:57
And that's really what it is it the success is not the norm, what we don't see is all of the effort and time that people are putting into things. So, like, it looks like they're successful very often. It's like, "No, no, they're probably four times as much not successful."
Anita Adams: 31:11
Oh, yeah.
Elana Gloger: 31:11
And- and so, I really think it speaks too to, like, having the endurance to withstand it. But like, what a shame that we have to. Like, speaking on that, Emily, um this past- like, in the middle of quarantine, my first ever first author publication got accepted, which was amazing, at, like, the fifth journal we submitted to. And, part of it had to do with, like, mismatching of journals which, like, had nothing to do with the research we did, had nothing to do with the writing that we did. Other ones were very legitimate claims. And so, we made important changes and it made it a stronger paper. But I remember when it first came out I was like, "Should I be proud of a paper that got rejected four times?" And then it's, like, that realization that, like, it doesn't matter. No one knows it got rejected from four other journals. And I feel like you can't be ashamed of that.
Anita Adams: 31:53
And you know, I think actually it's a pride point that despite it being rejected four times, you kept going with it. Because you know, there was this belief that's like, "No, this research has a meaning, it has a purpose. Therefore, I'm going to keep pushing for it." But I think on the other end too, like, the rejection process is helpful for letting us know when to let go of things too. It's like- and I'm not even at, like, that publishing stage. I mean, there's a paper I'm second author on that, like, I don't know what's happened with that yet. But I also know that publication is this long, arduous process, and then to like, wait and then it's like, "Oh, yeah, rejection" It's kind of like, "Oh, well, there goes those months of work right down the drain, so that was fun."
Elana Gloger: 32:29
Or the months that you waited.
Emily Atkinson: 32:30
Oh yeah, I was gonna say it's, like, one of those things where if someone else comes to you and is like, "Oh, my paper got rejected. I feel so bad about myself. I'm so dumb." You're like, "Oh, you know, definitely, like, that's not true." Like, you can definitely tell someone else. But then it's like, if I get feedback on a paper or I get a rejection, I like, have to just, like, let it sit in my inbox for a little while before I, like, work up the courage to read it. [Anita laughs] I guess maybe this is another worst. It's just really hard to separate your self worth from your productivity and your perceived success.
Anita Adams: 32:59
Oh, yeah.
Elana Gloger: 33:00
I feel like the whole self wort- self- I can't say this word- self worth being tied in with your productivity- our whole lives up to this point, or at least the last couple of years leading up to this- it was our whole life, right? When you're applying to programs where the acceptance rate is under 10%, under 5%, I think, for our clinical program-
Anita Adams: 33:19
It's under 2% for clinical.
Elana Gloger: 33:21
Ughh! Right? Like, you don't have a choice-
Anita Adams: 33:23
Yeah [Laughs]
Elana Gloger: 33:23
-right, like, not to be obnoxious, but like, you almost don't have a choice. I applied to 14 programs and I got two interviews. And then I got waitlisted at both and then I got off the waitlist where I am. And so, it doesn't matter. Even if you dedicate your whole life, it- you know, it suddenly has to switch where you're still dedicating your life but now your self worth isn't part of it. It's like- that switch doesn't just happen. And yet, it's so important that you make that switch for, like, your own mental health.
Anita Adams: 33:47
And definitely piggybacking off of that, like, the self worth thing, I think that goes hand in hand with, like, what everybody calls that "grad student guilt", where it's kind of, like you know, if you're not working, if you're not being productive all the time you feel, like, guilt or you're like, "I should be. I should be reading something right now. I should be analyzing some random data right now." Like, it's hard when, like you know, you've worked so hard to get to this point. And you feel, like- at least for me personally, because I don't want to speak for other people- but, like, for me personally, I feel like I have to show that, like, I've earned this spot because it was so hard to get into this position. I remember when I was applying to grad school- because I did it twice, like, I went through it two times- and I remember my first year I tried to go right out of undergrad and apply and I got waitlisted at a couple of places and ultimately I didn't go because I couldn't afford it at the time. But I do remember, like, my self worth went down a lot after that. All this hard work I put into undergrad, straight A student, hundreds of hours of research, and it meant NOTHING. Like, I didn't get in and I remember being-
Elana Gloger: 34:45
[Crosstalk] Well, it meant something. That's- and that's exactly it. It did mean something.
Anita Adams: 34:49
Oh no no. Yeah and that's what I was gonna say was- I was gonna say that, you know, for a while my self worth had gone down. I was like, "Maybe I'm not good enough for grad school." But, like, I do remember, like, when I got ultimately accepted into this program, I remember being like, "This is perfect. Like, I'm glad I waited. I'm glad that I took this time to, like you know, really figure out what it is I want to do because who knows what would have happened if I gotten to another program and I just went straight out of undergrad." So ultimately, it was, like, a good thing for myself. But I can see, like, just the process being terrible for people's self worth as well.
Elana Gloger: 35:19
In my instance, I actually did probably the stupidest thing. I would never recommend anyone do what I did, although everyone does. So I applied as a senior, um just a graduating senior and I had no backup plan. I was like, "Maybe I'll be a research assistant somewhere." But like, I didn't know how to get that job, I didn't really know what that meant, I wasn't actually financially prepared to move anywhere. I literally was like, "I'm going to apply and I'm going to get in because that is my only option." And I tied so- so much of my self worth to it. Had I not gotten in- you know, knowing now, my mentor isn't taking anyone next year and didn't take one in last year when I would have probably applied a second time. So like, I'm really glad that it happened this way. And at the same time, it's like, I would have had- I would have had no job. I don't know how I would have found one. How many people are being kept out of academia, how many brilliant, worthy people because the one time they apply or the one time they actually have the funds- don't even get me started on the finances-
Anita Adams: 36:08
Ugh, so expensive.
Elana Gloger: 36:10
-the one time they do, they don't get in for a reason that has nothing to do with them. And then it just totally messes with, like you said, the hundreds of hours of research and work they put in leading up to it. I mean, it's just... it's unfortunate and I don't know if there is a solution for it.
Anita Adams: 36:26
I mean, I'm totally right there with you on that. And I was gonna say, when I didn't get in- I was very much like you, Elana. My thing was like, "I have no backup plan. I'm going to grad school." And then I was like, "Oh, crap, it's May. I'm graduating and, hmm, my lack of a backup plan, that bit me in the butt now." So you know, I had to come up with one and, ultimately, it all worked out. But it was rough for a little bit there. Being on the other end, like, being the grad student after interview weekend, it really gives you kind of that other perspective about the process. Because we get so many brilliant people who come to apply and, like, they check out all on paper, they're great. And it just comes down to, like, that mentor that they applied to just so happen to not be taking students that year.
Elana Gloger: 37:07
Even if they walked into the day thinking, "Yeah, I'm going to have funding, I'm going to have room, blah, blah, blah." And then by the end of the day, that has totally changed for no reason at all to do with the applicants or whatever. And of course, we don't really get a say or get a look into any of that. Really, it almost has nothing to do with the applicants, especially by the time that are invited to interviews. Right? We're always told like, "If you get to that point, you would be successful in the program." So, Emily, what's your experience been with, like, the whole, like, self worth thing? I mean, have you been able to separate? How did you do that?
Emily Atkinson: 37:33
Um, ugh. A little bit. I mean, I think it was a lot harder at first. I'm lucky to have a supportive partner that reminds me very frequently that, like, my life is more than just what I do in grad school. But I think something that's been helpful for me in terms of not letting it dictate my self worth as much is trying to hone in on some of, like, the other hobbies and things I like to do and, like, relationships and trying to put some effort into those, you know. As you both know, I foster kittens.
Elana Gloger: 38:00
Oh, oh I know! Oh, I know ALL about it. [Anita and Emily laugh] Oh, I love them.
Emily Atkinson: 38:05
Yeah, I think that, like, that helps a lot. Because you know, it's something I'm doing that I feel good about, that I feel, you know, that I get some reward from. So, that's one way but it's still it's still very difficult.
Anita Adams: 38:15
It's hard. Yeah, I think those, like, external goals are really- I mean, I know I mocked you for the marathon thing earlier, but like, my second year, like, I decided to run a half marathon. Recently I've- I've taken up crocheting and, obviously, now I'm trying to this podcast. External goals that have nothing to do with grad school can help you feel like you're accomplishing things and really speaks to a point of self care that- I think not only should it, but it will be kind of its own episode because so much can be said about, like, what it means to take care of yourself. I didn't have any hobbies coming into grad school. I remember a conversation I had with my partner the first year we lived together, and I was a first year at grad school, never lived in the state that I live in now. And he was like, "I love you and you have no hobbies. You don't do anything but school." And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that's not true." And then of course, he followed up with you know, "Playing The Sims is not a hobby." To which I've got very defensive. [Anita and Emily laugh]. But he was so- he was 100% correct. I didn't know anything else that I enjoyed. You know, I started grad school freshly 22 I wasn't even two months into being 22 and I started a PhD program. And I was ready for it academically and professionally. I wasn't really ready for it personally. I didn't know what it meant to take care of myself outside of school. Because the expectations were so different, because every part of grad school was really so different than undergrad even though the, like, "pick your own schedule" is kind of similar. Having hobbies is so important and I- I am somebody who never did. Even growing up, my hobby was like, "I am on the computer." That was my personality. [Laughs] Like, I don't know what else to say, like, I watched a lot of Grey's Anatomy and, like, that was, like, that was it. So, I think that you're totally right, Emily like, having something that drives you- I love that your thing is fostering because every once in a while I get to enjoy that. [Anita laughs] Either via Snapchat or [inaudible] Yeah, exactly. Hobby by proxy.
Emily Atkinson: 39:59
Like you mentioned, you know, coming fresh from undergrad- and I am thankful- like, taking time off after undergrad I feel like was one of the best decisions I ever made. I actually came across my- I made a pro/con list of-
Elana Gloger: 40:09
Oh my god I love that.
Emily Atkinson: 40:11
Yeah, of taken time off after undergrad and I was, like, pretty bent out of shape about taking time off after undergrad. I was, like, really worried about it. And I looked back at my pro/con list and I was like, "Oh, none of these cons ended up happening." Like, it was totally fine.
Elana Gloger: 40:25
Oh, wait, isn't that wonderful?
Emily Atkinson: 40:27
It is, it is. One of my cons- I have to find it. One of my cons was like, "I will be over 30 when I finish grad school." Like, [sarcastic] oh no.
Elana Gloger: 40:36
Yeah, which is also, like, there is no rush to be in the job market. There is only time to develop as a person and develop your work. And like, yes, we all want to start making more than $20,000 or whatever it ends up being before taxes. Sure. But there isn't a rush in terms of your own development and growth. I mean, I'm saying this as an incoming fourth year, I may have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know that, you know, six years from now when I'm a postdoc on the market- or however many years from now- I'm going to look back and be like, "You have no idea what you're talking about, how naive." But from where I stand, I'm going to soak up as much time as I can. You know, yeah, it feels like it would suck to be over 30 to get your PhD and at the same time, it's, like- that is so arbitrary in the grand scheme of, like, no one knows how old anyone is.
Emily Atkinson: 41:20
Some advice I got before when I was, like, trying to make my decision. One of the grad students in the lab I was working in was like, "You will have plenty of time to work and to be stressed out and to make no money." She was like, "You know, enjoy- like, take your time off, enjoy it. Like, there is- there is no rush, really." And yeah, I definitely echo that sense of urgency. Like, when I was graduating, I was like, "I have to do this. I have to do it now. I'm never gonna go back if I don't do it now."
Elana Gloger: 41:49
I think honestly, that's going to be an entire episode. I'm gonna- there's going to be a whole thing about gap year or not, because, as somebody who didn't take a gap year, who landed with a dream mentor, who is doing exactly what I want, I still think I should have taken a gap year. And that is probably a conversation for another time. So, I do want to make sure that we end with a point here that I think wraps it all together. I think it's a best and a worst. And this is really how I view grad school and I feel like this would be, like, a good takeaway- maybe not for somebody already in grad school, because I think that anyone in grad school kind of already knows this, and both loves and hates this- but anyone maybe thinking about grad school is that: it's really a choose your own adventure. And Anita, you may laugh- you're probably laughing because you're like, "Elana says that all the time." [Anita laughs] But I really do believe that grad school is a choose your own adventure. And that's such- again, back to this, like, blessing and a curse thing- I get to decide what I'm doing at generally any point of the day. Like, yes, I have deadlines for things and I have goals I want to accomplish and so, that kind of dictates it. But, like, I can be as successful or not as I want to be. It really is such a privilege to be in grad school. And I hope this doesn't diminish from anyone listening who's having a really hard time, because I think all three of us are having a really hard time in our own respect AND I think that we're all really lucky. And we know that we're really lucky to get to be paid to work our passion.
Anita Adams: 43:12
I mean, I definitely echo that. Like, I did like basically that I could set my own schedule. But then you also quickly realize that, depending on the activities that you're doing, your schedule becomes a lot more rigid than you think. Just when you start having practicums, and in our case, Elana, like, we do a very specific research project that requires us to, like, be scheduling our free time. Yeah. But you start to find for yourself, you're like, "You know what, I can't be a therapist, a researcher, and a student in one day. So I'm going to schedule myself to where, you know, today is my therapist day. Wednesdays are my school only days." And like, I did that for myself in second year and I found grad school to be a lot more manageable when I did that. Because I used to just kind of be like, "I just need to fill up all hours of my day with some sort of activity. Doesn't matter what it is just fill it up." And then I realized I was like, "You know what, I don't need to do that. Like, what's the point of doing that? It's just stressing me out. And I can't handle it." So I liked the choose your own adventure once I figured out how to navigate the game. And that part is, like, overwhelming.
Elana Gloger: 44:13
I feel like our DCT (Director of Clinical Training) my first year had made the comment that you know, grad students wear a lot of hats. And so a lot of people will describe this as like code switching or task switching.
Anita Adams: 44:25
Yep.
Elana Gloger: 44:25
Where, like you said Anita, if you're filling the whole day where, you know, in the morning we're a therapist and then we're this practicum student doing something else and then we're a researcher or maybe you're, you know, you're also a TA if your research isn't paying you and you know, XYZ. And just switching almost, like, personalities between what you're doing or what your mind has to focus on, takes so much energy. And so, since lockdown and, you know, COVID and all of that started, I've been doing that similarly, where, you know, on this day I'm doing this or at least on Tuesdays I know I'm going to have research visits over the phone so I can expect that as opposed to, like, having one a day where I'm doing that and then okay at the jump into my "research" mind instead of, you know, not- more of, like, a passive "asking questions over the phone" mind. So, it sounds like Anita's choose your own adventure is, like, a car- a compartmentalizing strategy. [Anita laughs] Emily, have you adopted a similar strategy? Different? Tell me about your adventure. [Laughs]
Emily Atkinson: 45:15
My choose your own adventure. Um, hmm. That's hard because I- like I said beforehand- was, like, a very scheduled person. But since coming to grad school, I have not been as good about that. I'm kind of just- I'm not necessarily compartmentalize here, I should probably do more
of that, it's a goal of mine: 45:29
scheduling. But I agree when you say it is kind of the best- one of the best things and one of the worst things. Because, I mean, it is unique to, I guess like, a traditional job where you can kind of, like, if you want to work at 6pm, instead of 8? Well, like, you're welcome to do that. My advisor doesn't care when I get the work done as long as it gets done at some point. Yeah, I don't have much in the way of, you know, choose your own adventure. I think the farther you get into grad school, the more opportunity you have to, kind of like, go different ways. So, I'm definitely excited to do that, like, to try new things, maybe take new classes.
Elana Gloger: 46:00
Certainly for clinical psychology, we have a ton of classes to take at the beginning, more than any other program. I think counseling probably has a similar number of, like, required classes they have to take, although they're a totally different college, at least at our university. But there's something to be said that- I think for me, the big switch really did happen in third year. And so, maybe this is something that you guys are really going to come upon this year and that I've kind of, like, [inaudible] transitioned into where, you know, I have a bunch of To Do's, I think like, on my To Do list tracker. I use Notion, by the way, I recommend it to anyone. I have, like, 15 different categories of things I could be working on, whether it's this manuscript, or prepping this project, or learning R, which I will forever be trying to learn. But I've started! I have started, I swear. You know so, when thinking about that, it's, like, I could pick any of those at any time. And so learning to prioritize and learning to compartmentalize a little bit so I'm spending less energy switching back and forth, at least for me, has been helpful. But you know, every program is different, even outside of psychology. And even on this podcast, I hope to have people outside of psychology because we are not the end all be all of what grad school is like. So, with the whole choose your own adventure, it
Anita Adams: 47:02
Right. can be really beneficial if and when you figure it out. And before that it is, like, really stressful. I think this whole experience with grad school is stressful and, kind of, rocks you to your core and can change the way that you identify and look at yourself. And that can be scary. And I think the best thing to remember is that, like, none of us are alone in that. And I hope that you two don't feel alone. I know that I'm senior to you by one year and I remember- again, when your cohort came in, I was like, "I just- I"- and both of you were older than me as well. So like, I remember feeling kind of intimidated by that. But I just remember being like, "No one needs to feel alone in this space because we're all struggling through this" and, like, that sounds so cliche. I'm all about metaphors and cliches. I never thought I was but I am. No one needs to struggle through that alone. It's unnecessary. We are all caring people. We are all humans. And I think we can all support each other. So I guess that's my beautiful bow at the end. Love it.
Elana Gloger: 47:57
Well, Anita and Emily thank you guys again for talking with me today. I was so nervous. You guys were great first guest. This is really, really fun. I really feel like this is just, like, an hour long conversation of, like, many, many we've had before, like, hanging out before brown bag on Fridays. So, it was really great that we came together especially after, like, the pandemic, to just bond, to just have a little conversation about, like, the reality that's still going on despite the pandemic. You know, Emily, Anita, if people want to find you online or connect with you after listening to this, is there anywhere that they can do that?
Emily Atkinson: 48:27
Yeah, so you can find me on academic Twitter, if you feel so inclined. My handle is @ematkins912. That's E M A T K I N S 912.
Elana Gloger: 48:39
Anita, Is there anywhere people can find you if they want to connect with you or chat with you about anything that you talked about today?
Anita Adams: 48:44
Yeah, sure if you guys want to hit me up on MySpace at some point, that's be great. [Elana laughs] Let's see. I think there will be some- some old music from when I was, like, 13 on there and it's fine.
Elana Gloger: 48:55
Oh gosh, please don't [inaudible] My Space, I think I deactivated that account.
Anita Adams: 48:58
I had to show- I had to show my age there. But- [Laughs] but seriously, if you do want to connect with me, my email is always open and that's going to be aad257@uky.edu. So, hit me up there, it's great.
Elana Gloger: 49:14
Amazing. Well, again, guys, thank you so much. This has been a really good time and listeners I will talk to you next time. If you're a grad student and you would like to be a guest on this podcast, you can find the podcast on Twitter @DearGradStudent or if you just want to connect with me online, you can find me on Twitter @elana_gloger. That's E-L-A-N-A underscore G-L-O-G-E-R. And if you liked what you heard, tell your friends, tell your cohort, tell those undergrads that you're mentoring. And if you can please rate, like, and follow Dear Grad Student on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or you know, wherever you find your other favorite shows. And as a reminder, all resources and links mentioned in this episode can be found in the description. And until next time, warmest regards, best wishes, sincerely, Elana. [Musical outro]
